Can you propose a scenario where the CNR will be worse on June 5th than it is right now?

The CNR hasn't been King of Missiles for a LONGGG TIME. That belongs to the Golem. Period. Even after this patch, the Golem will still remain the overall King especially with Marauder V. Your protest over the CNR being gimped is the incorrect assessment, the CNR has been limping for such a long while, these bonuses will make it DPS potential realized as opposed on EFT paper.

CPU has never been an issue for me for fits, but I doubt that is the case for many. So bumping CPU for CNR, SNI, TFI as well as the Pest, is necessary.

Main CNR problem is - still - getting 45tf CPU to drive a midslot *and* a launcher, when the launcher alone takes 57tf with proper rigs. That'll take some fiddling to fit, won't add another coprocessor.

Well, pretty much all I had to say was this, and he beat me to it.

My CNR fits are all pretty tight already, with 6 mids and an empty high. Adding another launcher at ~57 CPU (triple rigors, now that we have a couple built in flares, and because of the explosion radius increase in Odyssey) but with only ~56 more CPU added will be tough, and that's not even going on to the extra mid. I mathed it with a 4x BCU, cruise 2 mission setup, and I'll have most of it fit, but only have 36.5 CPU to fill the last 2 mids.


Still, I can't complain. It'll kill cruisers and up with ease, and still apply good damage to frigates.



The paper DPS goes down, but the applied DPS to anything under battleship, perhaps battlecruiser will go up a fair amount.

Also worth remembering is the cruise missile buff going out in Odyssey, increasing DPS of cruises by ~30%, while increasing the explosion radius by 10%. I think the CNR will come out substantially better after the patch.

Also getting a pretty substantial buff to capacitor, so can't complain there.

I would comment on the others, but I don't typically fly Navy Battleships.

I just have to poke at this but seriously, how often is a CNR even used for PVP? I could be wrong, but I certainly don't hear of, or have seen it being widely used for PVP.

I'm not sure why you're being so difficult about this. The ship you're extolling the virtues of already exists. The Golem has a native missile damage application bonus, 7 mids, and 8 effective launchers. Except it also gets utility high slots, a tank bonus, and an extra damage application bonus. You complain about the painter bonus - but ignoring it leaves you tons of room for copious amounts of ECCM.

The new CNR is just bad.

-Liang

Saying that the Golem is "crap at cruise" and that the new CNR is going to be decent in the same breath is simply mind blowing. They're exactly the same ship, except that the Golem is very very significantly better.

-Liang

Ed: In case you forgot, the reason the Golem is known as a "torp boat" is because the CNR was so much better at cruise due to having more raw DPS. The amped up damage application was necessary with torps... not so much with cruise. Now the only differences between them is that the CNR has worse damage application, worse tank, no utility, and more sensor strength.

CCP Fozzie has stated before that Navy (and even T2) isn't always meant as a straight upgrade (damage-wise) to its T1 counterpart. Specialization (in T2) lends for ships being better in certain areas (speed, in the case of the Vaga vs Stabber), while Navy can represent a straight survivability buff, especially when taking into account that the T1 ship might be putting out respectable damage, as is the case with the Mega and its 7 double bonused turrets and 8 lows. That's not to say that some Navy ships don't get unique bonuses and more damage (looks at Vexor NI).

Old CNR:

http://scr.hu/4s/uu30c

New CNR:

http://scr.hu/4s/ldtjp




And plenty of CPU with 3xRigor missile stats:

http://scr.hu/4s/nnsdx

Might I inquire as to what those situations might be?

A missing utility high, you don't say? Much like Rokh, Abaddon, Apocalypse, Maelstrom, Vindicator, I take it? Funny enough, many of those are also some of the most wanted fleet ships in game, so obviously, a "missing utility high" isn't as "missing" after all.

I understand where Liang is coming from, but in my opinion CNR has always been primarily a cruise missile ship. If I wanted to fly a torpedo boat, there are and always were better options out there.

The CNR will be the premier mission runner for those that can't buy or fly a Golem in the Caldari world, no doubt. And with the changes to cruise, maybe we'll see more in PvP, too.

That's all thats really important, it's kind of hard to stomach all the complaining about a ship that will be demonstrably better than it is now (like how for example the loss of a utility slot is more that compensated by a mid slot you can put a prop mod in).

I guess for some people "better" just isn't enough.

So you're proposing we use the same bonuses it has now and we undo the (needed) cruise missile buffs. And to support this argument you use Fury dps numbers. Try faction instead. It's more likely to match reality.

I'm a bit confused about the CNR, it says that it will have 8 launcher slots but on SiSi is still 7. Or the changes are not implemented on the test server yet?

Some fo you say that there is no use to use missiles on anything under BS's, there are drones for a reason. Well, a bomber would say that is not true by removing all my drones from the combat scene loling at my missiles.

The overwhelming DPS difference is (1.375/1.333) =%3.1
I think the exp radius bonus (which is also a 1/0.75=1.333 magnitude bonus) is far superior to this.
Also you can fit more BCU's to a CNR. 4 BCU's on fleet phoon = no place for armor tank and using 5 meds for shield tank = no place for target painter(s).

Fleet phoon also has quite low PG so I don't really think it can replace TFI as a projectile boat. Maybe the XLASB fits might work in fleet phoon's favor due to high CPU but that's it.

Speaking of CPU, CNR needs a CPU boost.

Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.

How about you try to fit a TFI and discover that "OH LOOK I DONT HAVE ENOUGH PG TO FIT ANYTHING MORE THAN MY 6 GUNS/LAUNCHERS!?"

And thats with only one plate/Lse. Dont even think about fitting it as an active platform.

I don't understand why all those CNR lunatics complain about their ship doing more damage than before.
Probably CCP Rise should really tune down the damage on the CNR, so that they at least have a reason to complain.

My math is math. I'm telling you assuming both ships actually apply their damage (which CNR can do MUCH easier thanks to exp radius bonus.)

Even adding 3rd BCU on a fleet phoon is stretching it too far as you'll not be achieving any decent armor tank, yet you are talking about putting 4th....and a 4bcu cnr outdps's a 3bcu Fphoon by the same overwhelming amount: %3

CNR can field 3 gardes whereas Fphoon can wield 5 gardes This is a 120 DPS difference to a range to a limited range with limited damage application.

A cruise phoon with 2 bcu's deals 1060 dps with furies and gardes, where a CNR with 4bcu's deals 1059 DPS with furies and gardes. There is an overwhelming 1 dps difference.

You would think so... and you'd be wrong. There's a reason Stoicfaux and I are both like hurrrrrr phoon fleet. The Phoon Fleet has, not even kidding, 30% more applied DPS than the CNR.

-Liang

Ed: And yes, this is with realistic fits in both PVP and PVE.

I think battleships need more shields, more armor and more hull. If you do to comparaison with navy battlecruiser :

Navy Brutix, Standard Mega and Navy Mega >

Navy Brutix :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 5250 / 6750 / 7125

Standard Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500

Navy Mega :
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 9000(-316) / 9500(-461) / 10500(-750)


Hmmm, ok, No body see something wrong here ?

Those navy bc's are crap and you're silly for thinking they're holding anything back. The Navy Drake is basically a drake with more tank, and thats kind of a constant across them all, they're not anything above or beyond a reggie BC, they just tank harder.

Get rid of the velocity bonus on the Navy Raven and replace it with a 5% damage bonus

Wouldnt be OP at all since the dps would be about 1300~ which is just fine for an faction ship.

Soo... Pretty much looks like Tempest fleet issues needs a buff and the scorpion navy issues and Phoon fleet issue need nerfs... Other than that, most things look pretty good. The extra +200 Drone bay on the geddon needs to be removed asap tho, makes no ******* sense at all... There is really no point in flying a navy mega with the navy geddon the way it is now.

I'm not confusing anything, you seem to be dillusional about the pest, so I'll repeat it again, the typhoon fleet issue IS faster then the tempest fleet issue and and is more agile, and is all around a better brawler, Missiles, AC's, Can either be a good shield or armor buffer, and I had no issues in fitting it.

I had assumed that when I mentioned the typhoon fleet issue I was comparing the ships, then I brought the sleipnir up because it is a fantastic ship, is it over powered? Not really, the tempest is just underpowered, both the fleet issue, and the regular tempest. You keep on ranting about fittings but I have no idea what skills you have, but I lol fitted a Typhoon fleet issue like this.

with my skills on sisi here goes.

Hi 6x800 repeating AC 2, 2x CM 2

Med- 2x Large Shield Extender 2, 2x Invul field II 1x Republic fleet 100mn afterburner.

Low- 3x gyros 1x TE2 1x DCU2 2x BCU 2

Rigs- 1xem 1xtherm 1x Large Projectile Ambit Extension I (Increases fall off)

Drones - 5 berserker t2 and 5 vespa ecm drones

Stats, 89k buffer, 1323 dps, 465 MS with afterburner on. I had no problems hitting frigates at 30km and applying my damage with just projectiles. This is just a lol wtf tank damage fit, I'm not even trying and I can get these kinds of results. How the **** is a tempest supposed to be better than this? Tell me I'm curious, the options you can do with the typhoon are lightyears ahead of the tempest. Show me how exactly the tempest can be fit to beat a typhoon in a brawl.

I don't understand how this can be a bonus, (srry, noob) doesn't it make it even harder to hit smaller targets?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551&find=unread

PDF Reports comparing the Odyssey cruise missile/ship changes are available in the above link:
* cnr_flare_v_rigor_odyssey.pdf
* cnr_rigs_odyssey.pdf
* cnr_v_fleet_typhoon_odyssey.pdf
* cnr_v_typhoon_v_raven_v_fleet_typhoon_v_sni_v_golem_odyssey.pdf
* cruise_cnr_v_torp_golem.pdf
* raven_v_cnr_odyssey.pdf
* tengu_ham_v_hml.pdf

It should help answer the CNR is just a Golem-Lite question. Or whether the CNR's "applied damage" bonus sets it apart from the "everything now has 8 effective launchers" ship changes.

You can also mess around with the easy to read spreadsheet.[1]


[1] I think Perl is easy to read. That's your only warning.

That's nice work, but (as EVERY EFT warrior has ever learned, or should have) raw numbers just can't tell the whole tale.

Like how the Golem (using the Golem as it's the main point of contention with the CNR) will get jammed if their is a single Gurista Frig withing 5 jumps of you (lol). The CNRs FoF missiles will be way more helpful than the Goelms will be in a jammed to death situation, and that could litteralyl mean life or death.

Or how the Golem will lose so much more dps to defender missiles, (another thing that affects the FoF "rescue" missile use)

Or how a Golem neuted to zero cap loses a bit more of it's ability to apply damage than a similarly neuted CNR would because the CNR has a better bonus.

Or how that CNR with a sig radius of 410 is WAY more survivable against the Citidel Torpedos you find in top end null sec PVE plexes compared to the Golems 575 sig radius. etc etc etc

I haven't had a chance to, but a buddy of mine who loves CNRs like I do reports absolutely loving the ship on SiSi.

First, use missiles on cruisers. Drones are slow.

And as Jenn aSide pointed out, it's become less about raw missile DPS and more about different aspects of the ship hulls. Having 9.33 launchers is no longer an "I-win" button for the CNR. Pick the hull that suits your particular needs.

Unfortunately this means it is likely that CCP managed to successfully balance missile battleships (without dumbing them down) which will most likely result in reduced tears and ranting on the forums. I, for one, do NOT welcome our quieter, less whinging forum overlords drama queens.

Which one do you pick?

Fleet Typhoon: 8.25 (6) launchers and 125 / 200 drone bandwith/bay. If you can manage to shield tank this (CPU is tight,) you're looking at 8.25 launches + 3 BCUs, and 5 sentry drones + 3 DDAs.

SNI: 8 (6) launchers, 20% shield resists, 8 mids. You should be able to slap 4 TPs on this which makes TP juggling easy.

Raven: 8 (6) launchers. Cheaper CNR with CNR firepower. Is the extra price of the CNR worth the free Rigor II rig? Maybe, maybe not.

CNR: 8 (8) launchers. Free ~Rigor II rig. 75/75 drone bandwidth/bay.

Typhoon: 6 (8) Free Flare II rig. 100/125 drone bandwith/bay, i.e. 8 launchers plus 4 sentries.

Personally, I'm a bit interested in the hyper DPS Fleet Typhoon with minimal shield tank, although the lack of omnis may be problematic.

I bought two Navy Scorpions. I can see them being the new, old Drake. A full passive Navy Scorp is going to be a tough nut to crack.

Not to worry, even after odyssey there will still be whining about the CNR because on paper it doesn't look much different from some other ship. I'm simply betting that (like the couple of people I now know have flown it on SiSi), most CNR pilots will recognize it as a superior ship than they had before June 4.

Hey guys

Posting to let you know that we are going to make two small adjustments to the Armageddon Navy Issue.

First, we're going to lower the drone bay to 200m3. We gave it the giant bay as a way to connect it to the new tech 1 Geddon, but as you've pointed out, it just seems weird.

Second, we're going to lower the signature radius of the Armageddon to 400. The original increase was because of trying pull a lot of the core metrics closer together for the ships within a role (like I did with sensor strength or lock range etc) but in this case it was a totally unnecessary nerf to performance when nothing else on the ship was changing substantially.

The OP will be updated to reflect these changes.

On CNR - 7 launchers and 5% damage bonus (equivalent 8.75 launchers) will be more acceptable.
one utility high slot, no CPU problems, not much dps (only 9% more than T1 Raven and SNI, but still less than TFI).

It uses a Caldari hull so my point still stands. The question is "why do I have to fly a non-gallente ship to get the best out of drones", not "why is a pirate ship better than faction". Would they make a Gallente pirate faction ship that performs as well then I'd happily use it but as it stands the combination of shield, resist bonuses and slotting clearly favours the Rattlesnake over the new Dominix or navy version as a pure drone boat, for PVE.

That just doesn't make any sort of sense, I mean if the best drone ship would be Amarr then at least there would be some logic behind it but this is just silly.

Would you please put the idea to the devs on changing the CNR to 7 turrets again with the ROF bonus, but drop the velocity bonus?
Keeping the Explosion radius bonus of course.

This will put the CNR more equal to the Fleet Phoon w/ its superior dps not only in missile but even drone form as well.

This would be a fair change and with the range cut, this will not put the dps at 200km.

That is really not asking alot considering all the math has the Phoon much better off, not only will it open the utility slot again, that change would make caldari pilots happy.

Caldaris should try to stay outside neut range with their battleships. That is the focus of their race. Gettign close and personal with caldari is same as sayign to minmatar ships to stand still and tank it like a boss (that iis also one of reasons I say maelstorm is NOT a minmatar ship, and shoudl be changed).


DO not blame us if you want to use raven wrong. Caldari battleships are supposed to stay further away and let the tacklign to smaller ships. So the raven does not have as much use for its neuts as the gallente have for example or even the minmatar.

If the raven had no range bonus, then I would agree that the loss of a utility high was somethign important.

Hurricane . Super nerfed. Rifter the only t1 combat frigate not buffed. Stabber. Got so horrible that is bein g re buffed because became unplayable, Tempest fleet issue is not gettign an uplift is HORRIBLE. Maelstrom.. abaddon can do the same BETTER (same alpha , more EHP). TRacking enhancer nerf. Rupture the cruiser that barely changed (1 slot moved, much less than any other race).

Stop being arrogant and Blind. Gallente are the ones on the upswing now. Peopel trainign projectiles now will be whining in 1 year because gallente ships are overpowered and etc etc . Smart peopel already trained Gallente.

DUDE? SHUT UP ! 1400MM T2 DO SAME ALPHA IN ABADDON AND MAESLTROM! Same DAMAGE PER VOLLEY! And peopel ahve been using them for YEARS instead of Maelstroms. THis post of yoru just shows how LITTLER you know of PVP

Explosion radius is HUGE for a torp boat, it isn't being "pigeon holed" as a cruise boat imo. It is now way stronger as a cruise boat for obvious reasons and as for torps, explosion radius+range is immensely useful. Even at 100km the old cruises took quite a while to reach their target. I agree that the range bonus is superfluous on a cruise boat but the bonuses are perfect for torps in any real pvp situation. The only time the old cnr would be a better torp boat is if you're running missions so you are able to fit t2 rigors and exp radius implants, otherwise the new cnr is much better most of the time (and you get another med).

CNR will be THE ONLY ship with explosion radius bonus (which again is much better than exp velocity). And yes the typhoon will be OP but I was saying you don't have to deal with the pest fleet issue, also the scorp navy will be a much better shield fleet ship than phoon.

Yeah it got a 9% dps nerf for 30% cruise buff, seems kinda fair to me. Would you really trade 9% dps for 25% exp radius and an extra med slot?

1000 DPS at ~135Km isn't going to fly either.

(IIRC the New Cruise missiles will have a theoretical range of about 140Km - someone correct me if this is wrong?)

Basically the bonused BS missile platforms are all going to have about the same base missile DPS (8 effective launchers)

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

NavScorp is the "tankmode" ship, which has the lowest damage application ability in return for being as tough as a brick.

Pick the one that suits you.

If you want to invest another 2.5M SP (and more ISK) and you are OK with juggling Target Painters, then the Golem will incrementally outperform the CNR at PvE, which is exactly what a T2 ship should do.

Pure win as far as I'm concerned. I'm going to lulz really hard when people on Tranquility buy up all the Fleet Phoons I'm selling them (I knew all that Tribal Liberation Force LP I'd been hoarding would come in handy one day) to only then realize that "EFT is a LIE!!!!" :) .

Some folks will never realize (or admit) that DPs is only a small part of the whole pie. An ancient Sailing ship was more than just it's sails, an EVE ship is WAY more than it's paper DPS. Speed, maneuverability, tank, size, ease of fitting, bonuses, damage application and dozens of other factors determine how good a ship is, not just DPS. I'm sure the new Floon will be great in certain situations (my current Floon is already great), but to think that because of some EFT numbers it's going to be better than a CNR...well, anyone who thinks that hasn't visited SiSi lately.

Well Im using My CNR only in PVE and currently with this setup:

[Raven Navy Issue, RAVEN]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Amplifier II

Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Pith A-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Pith A-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Pith A-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Core A-Type 100MN Afterburner

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Auto Targeting System II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Hobgoblin I x5

DPS: 916
Volley: 5873
Sig. Radius: 235 m fury
ROF: 6,41 sec

after Patch and new changes to CNR,rate of fire of lunchers and cruise missiles i shouls have:

[Raven Navy Issue, RAVEN]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Amplifier II

Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Pith A-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Pith A-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Pith A-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Core A-Type 100MN Afterburner
FREE SLOT ( i will decide after patch what i can still put here) but with ease i can put more tank or Cap Recharger II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Bay Loading Accelerator I

Hobgoblin I x5

DPS: 1228,25
Volley: 8389,6
Sig radious: 246,75m fury
ROF: 6,83 s


In the End im loosing 15% explosion velocity Bonus from Rig,0.42 sRof and almost 12m sig radious from changes
Thats Nothing with that amount of boosted DPS
i didnt calculated new range with velocity and missile changes but if someone did i like to hear Thx

Exactly what "PVE" were you doing? All PVE ain't equal in EVE.

I've done nothing but fly these ships on SiSi for the last couple days, the CNR is still my preferred ship. The Floon is nice but having to use drones to get the best out of it sucks (i hate using drones), The SNI doesn't feel a bit different, and TP juggling with the golem still sucks.

The new CNR's "free built in Rigor" lets me do some creative things with Rigs that my tranquility CNR can't do. It doesn't get jammed nearly as much as the Golem in Guristas plexes, it laughs at the neuting in the Blood Raider Temple (stronger FoF missles, some times i don't even want to switch back to regular i get so edazy) and live long enough to gtfo from a 9/10 after I took one of those freaky as hell wrecking shots. The SNI passive tanks plexes better, but it always did.

The New CNR is just plain better and top end PVE than the current one is once you learn how to use/fit it (MJD sometimes, ECM Burst some times). The ONLY thing I'll miss is my auto targeting system in the utility slot, but it's no big loss.

I simply don't see where the hate comes from, the CNR went from Cadillac (good) to Maserati (good and pretty lol). It may be that some of you were spolied by what the CNR was for so long, but there's no help for that.

CCP gets a thumbs up from me on their CNR changes.

I'm sorry to hear you don't like the new and improved CNR and have spent multiple pages whining about it.

Others of us do like it and I'll bet you real actual space money (1 MILLION ISK) that CCP isn't going to reverse course on the CNR. So you'll simply have to learn to dislike it, or not, up to you.

It's a fine ship on SiSi (even compared to the other missile ships) and I can't wait to get it on June 4. And on the off chance that CCP does listen to the few of you who are complaining about it, well thats win/win for the rest of us too (until the nerf it for being to strong).

OMG someone go to iceland and assassinate CCP

So testing it on SiSi is eyes closed. That's rich, you're just starting to get butt hurt because you imagine CCP taking one of your toys away.

The CNR is fine, get over it.

I'm still here because i want CCP to know some of us like what they are doing and that we won't be drowned out by people who seem to want overpowered ships. So while i'd have no qualms using the new curse buffed +RoF + explosion radius CNR monster, I don't think it's right for the CNR or the game. I like the new Navy Drake and Navy Raven idea (even if they do present me the problem of not having that utility spot for a cloak which is very helpful in null sec).

Some of you act like CCP is committing a crime against humanity, and as long as you keep riding that train, I'll keep riding the "nope, CNR is fine by me" train. Because it is fine.

Try making REASONABLE counter proposals to CCP and you'll have my support (for what it's worth).

cause it is matar and we all know ccp are so biased they cant make matar balanced just op
fleet typhoon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cnr

****** balance

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

Like you said for L4's 3 slot tank is only enough if you have good skills and extensive knowledge of missions and rats, which is not mandatory to play the game. Not all players are playing it that way you know. In fact those who can get away with 3 slot tanks are quite a minority. (I know I can't.)

New versions of Domi, Phoon and Armageddon have full drone bays and can be effectively used as split weapon ships. You can put 3 slot shield tank on any of them and wonder at the obnoxious DPS amount as you'll be using low slots for increasing damage of both weapon systems. Even new Arma will be "Outperforming" your ships according to this logic (Which is totally wrong).

The reality, however, is people are actually using their med slots for tank. 5 Slots...6 Slots even. I'm not strictly talkinkg about L4's....there are many PvE and PvP scenarios where you'll need to squeeze every bit of tank from your slots....these scenarios are not rare either.

About current Fphoon: If you fit it like your fit(4x cnbcs 4xddas, cruises only, bouncers) it will "outdps" your current CNR....yet nobody flies it for this purpose for a good reason.

TL;DR:Split weapon ships, when used with paper tanks.DO achieve great paper DPS values, but are impractical in reality. Balancing IS and SHOULD BE taking this into account.

You know the difference between 8 non dmg bonused launchers and 6 37.5% launchers is 3% right? Would you really want to trade 3% damage difference for 25% reduction in missile signature? The real complaint about Fphoon is combining this with huge dronebay and additional perks like high speed and low signature.

If the question is pvp or something, there should be choices. But if the Question is "lvl 4 mission" or someother PVE and the choices are "CNR or Golem", imo Golem is supposed to win every time, because that's what Marauders are made for (tractors and salvagers are there to support the ships mission, they aren't in and of themselves the ships purpose any more than the tanking and ewar bonuses are). Ideally if the Question was "Golem or Rattlesnake" it should still be Golem (if by nothing more than a hair).

And that's a problem that CCP should (and I think will) fix. The whole point of Marauders is supposed to be PVE, at least that's what CCP said when they introduced them. And for every other race except caldari, Marauders are superior to navy ships in most ways . Who would take a (current) navy mega over a Khronos if they could fly it, for example. The ONLY ships that (imo) should challenge Marauders are Pirate BSs.

CNR can field an extra sentry drone and has a 5th low slow for a DDA.
Golem has 3 rig slots (2 slots plus missile explosion velocity bonus.) CNR has four. (3 slots plus missile explosion radius bonus.)
However, the Golem's TPs and TP bonus tends to make up for rig slot deficiency, but you potentially lose DPS in TP falloff.
Golems are better at applying damage to small targets, however, it doesn't really change the VTK and TTK (volleys/time to kill) numbers, so the CNR and Golem tend to apply damage equally.
Golem suffers significantly more from NPC defenders.

Except for the looting and salvaging, and maybe the tank, it's a bit of a wash.

The Vargur's falloff and tracking bonii are fairly significant in terms of applied DPS. Vargur ~69km falloff versus TFI's ~44km. Tracking 0.0813 versus .05913.

OTOH, the TFI can add 5 sentry drones to the mix.

As it should, it's a Tech 1 navy BS. The problem in the past is that the CNR was a viable alternative (in pve) to a ship that should rule caldari/missile PVE (The Golem). CCP pre-nerfed the marauders too much, but it was mostly felt by the caldari ship users.

Same as i told the other guy, none of us know what they will do with the marauders so the TFI having a temporary advantage doesn't mean anything. Now, after they rebalance the maruaders and the TFI is still better, than you can draw conclusions about CCP's intent.

See Stoicfaux's analysis. The CNR has some advantages the SNI can't really match, and you can tell this flying the 2 ships on sisi (in high end PVE which is my focus, pvp is another matter but I don't pvp in navy ships).

Someone is mighty butt hurt for some reason.

We get it, you don't like the new CNR. That's tough. Don't fly it after June 4th.

I think it's fine and prefer it to the other ships people keep mentioning. Somehow you seem to feel like CCP is taking something away from you. Maybe so, but you'll really just need to get over that.

CNR has 100m3 dronebay. It's not changing in Odyssey.

Not true[1]. EFT's DPS chart would seem to say the RF Ammo Vargur is better against a 575m sized Golem moving perpendicular at 131m/s. Even with 3 TCs and 2x TPs on the TFI.

With bouncers, there's a ~40 DPS difference at 12.5km and ~335 DPS difference at 61km (which is right outside of drone control range.)

In other words, it's worth investigating fittings and doing a proper comparison between the TFI and Vargur. I won't have time to do so though.

On a side note, the Cruise Missile TFI is doing a flat 925 DPS of applied missile damage.


[1] in a very limited situation. ;-)

....And some of us don't salvage/loot.

That's ccp's choice, and while I'd abuse it, I don't think it's the best idea. Better would be to bring the Floon back down to earth a bit. The idea is what's best for the game's balance, not what I would like personally (because personally i'd like a CNR with citidel torps , a bomber like power grid bonus so they would fit, and a 400% TP bonus for the CNR lol)..

Yea, it's flat out better in the worst case scenarios i've put it in (Tank is nice but SNI had a harder time with the whole GTFO thing in plexes and lvl 5s). What are to you "tiny" advantages are to me the difference between a popped ship and survival. That's why I like the new CNR concept, it has a proper place in the t1/navy/t2 line up and it works the way I need it to when it counts.

Spoken by someone who doesn't want their new favorite toy nerfed. At the very least the fleet phoon needs its drone bay gutted.

I use sentry CNR now, I contend with the Light drones by using a MJD and popping them as they approach with the sentries (and the occasional precision missile salvo). The New CNR is muucchh better at that with the extra mid slot and explosion radius bonus + rigs (flare II instead of flare one).

Depends on the mission/site and the rats. Blood Raiders and Guristas have more long range orbit rats than other races, even some of the cruisers orbit further out than the normal 17-18 k of angel and serps.

Hate the current Golem but like the current CNR etc.

I'm quite against nerfing the Phoon FI's drones, but I'd be more than happy to see a 5/5 layout.

-Liang

pretty standard set ups. When I'm doing something where I know i'll be using an MJD I got with medium deadspace booster, boost amp+ hardeners, BCUs and DCU in the lows, rigors and flares in the rig slots always. For tougher sites or missions I've used ASBs, or Deadpsace XL boosters + cap injectors.

Lately (in the last month i've played with the 3 BCU/2DDA sentry MJD CNR and man, have I been missing out (i just never though of the CNR like that, but it's cool.

The only thing Im going to miss from my high sec cnr is the ATS or dronle link aug I usually use. It's going to be more of a problem in null because I won't have a cloak, but that just means rat in systems with stations or poses (or have enough safe spots to warp around for 5 minutes after npc aggro so I can log.

Noting I say is going to make you like the new CNR, i just don't think it's this terrible dog of a ship you seem to.

It works fine for me.

Domi, Mega and Arma can do this too. Better in fact. Does it make them OP?

Tempest is more vertical!!!

In b4:
BUT MISSILES HAZ RATTLESNAKES!

I love how several people were always foretelling that exactly this would be what happens and yet the whining didn't stop and people claimed the CNR was broken and useless :D

Now that Odyssey is live not a single post on how the CNR is bad.

I feel like a black woman in hindsight

[stupid forums ate post - let's try again]

Okay, if the regular Raven performed as well as the CNR, the mission wasn't hard enough for it to matter what you were flying.

The CNR has a considerably better tank, is faster and more agile, has better lock time, higher sustained DPS (because it needs to reload its launchers less often), and better applied DPS on anything smaller than battleships (and on BS as well if you use Fury on them). The CNR also has a bigger drone bay and more bandwidth, as an added little bonus.

TL;DR: You are wrong.

Did you even read his post?

See the problem here is that you're making **** up.